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Post-RM discussion

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Late comment I am the person who started this mess (though in my very stubborn opinion, I still believe that I cleared it). I can see that Mdewman6 correctly sees that "vitamin B3" and "nicotinic acid" are distinct, so I would like to once again outline the mess and explain my view on the "ideal situation". I hope this is not seen as an attempt at a Last Word -- I welcome everyone to throw question at me so we can, maybe, get it fixed once and for all. And I hope I'm not counting as adding further edits, because this is outside of the green box!

  • The vitamin sense (vitamin B3 (Q30715691)) is unambiguously specified with "vitamin B3", but a quick look at how food is labeled in regulations and, well, cereal boxes will show that "niacin" would be the more proper, WP:COMMONNAME choice. Indeed, the word "niacin" was specifically coined from "nicotinic acid vitamin".
  • The one specific compound sense (nicotinic acid (Q134658)) would be unambiguously specified by, as A455bcd9 notes, "nicotinic acid". Among the possible forms of the vitamin, this substance is the only one that acts as a lipid-modifying medication. The trouble is that American medicine have decided to also use the name niacin for this substance, even in the context of the lipid-modifying medicine. And we all know how influential American terminological decisions are.

My ideal state for the pages is therefore:

I executed the split partly because I judged, from the many discussions around Archive 2, that people do realize these two are distinct things and find the intermingling confusing. Nicotinic acid was unavailable for move, hence the pretty screwed-up parentheticals.--Artoria2e5 🌉 22:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If anything, I would be okay with moving niacin to nicotinic acid and moving niacin (disambiguation) to niacin. But regardless, if the status quo is unsatisfactory, go ahead and start another RM, but make sure to include all necessary moves in a single request (see WP:EXPLICIT), so we have one discussion. Mdewman6 (talk) 23:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this.
Rename this article to "nicotinic acid", as this is the INN for the substance, and there is no confusion about it. In the article we can just mention that niacin is the USAN name for "nicotinic acid".
Move Niacin (disambiguation) to Niacin.
And I think the "Vitamin B3" article should be keep with that name to avoid confusion, and explain in the lede that it is also referred as Niacin.
-- Arthurfragoso (talk) 06:15, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Corn

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No article referring to maize should use the word 'corn'. It's confusing outside of North America and surely all North Americans know what maize is, which is unambiguous. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize#Names 84.203.21.239 (talk) 17:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second paragraph of Vitamin deficiency section has "maize (corn)" I changed the one sentence's use of "corn" after that to "maize". Also fixed in the Sources table. David notMD (talk) 18:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Niacin definition disagreement between institutions

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I noticed in Brazil that there were some supplements that had niacin in the nutritional table, but in the ingredients it says it is actually nicotinamide.

I was sure that niacin meant nicotinic acid, so I emailed a big supplement company here. They replied to me pointing to a food/supplement labeling legislation that in summary says that niacin can refer to either nicotinic acid or nicotinamide:

  • ANVISA (2021-10-15). Instrução Normativa - IN Nº 28, de 26 de julho de 2018 (Com emendas) [Regulatory Instruction - No. 28, of 26 July 2018 (with amendments)] (PDF) (Report) (in Brazilian Portuguese). Archived (PDF) from the original on 2024-12-12. Retrieved 2024-12-12.

Brazil usually just mirror those kind of standards from US, so what does the FDA says?

"(...) This results in the following order for vitamins and minerals: Vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin E, vitamin K, thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate and folic acid, vitamin B12, (...) The (b)(2)-dietary ingredients shall be listed according to the nomenclature specified in § 101.9 or in paragraph (b)(2)(i)(B)(2) of this section." 21 CFR 101

"The term niacin refers to nicotinamide (nicotinic acid amide-NAD), nicotinic acid (pyridine-3-carboxylic acid), and derivatives that exhibit the biological activity of nicotinamide."

The last document also mention some curious things:

  • "niacin" (...) "had its unit of measure established in the 1989 RDA as “Niacin Equivalent”"
  • "While the unit of measurement for the RDI for niacin is listed as Niacin Equivalents (i.e., mg NE) in § 101.9(c)(8)(iv), only the amount “mg” will continue to be declared in labeling."
  • NE = Niacin Equivalents, 1 mg NE = 1 mg niacin = 60 mg tryptophan (see § 101.9(c)(8)(iv) (footnote 5))
  • "Furthermore, the amino acid tryptophan is available for conversion to NAD once protein synthesis needs are met and thus can contribute to meeting the RDA for niacin (Ref. 1). The tryptophan-to-niacin inter-conversion was considered previously in setting the RDA for niacin (Ref. 4). Therefore, the RDA for niacin is expressed in Niacin Equivalents (NE), allowing for the conversion of tryptophan to niacin (mean value of 60 mg tryptophan is equivalent to 1 mg of niacin)"
  • mg NE = mg niacin + (mg tryptophan ÷ 60)

Okay, so maybe the FDA could be wrong? What academic papers say? Doing a quick search, I find that there are papers aligned with the FDA saying that niacin refers to both nicotinic acid and nicotinamide.[1][2][3][4][5]

And there are also papers aligned with the current wikipedia article, saying that niacin refers only to nicotinic acid, but not to nicotinamide.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14]

So then I find out that niacin is the USAN name of nicotinic acid, so it is the term used in some chemists websites.[15][16]

  • Niacin (nye’ a sin). USP. C6H5NO2. 123.11. [Nicotinic Acid is INN and JAN.] (1) 3-Pyridinecarboxylic acid; (2) Nicotinic acid. CAS-59-67-6. Antihyperlipidemic; vitamin (enzyme co-factor). Niacor (Upsher Smith); Niaspan (KOS); Nicolar (Sanofi Aventis); Wampocap (Medpointe)
  • Niacinamide (nye" a sin’ a mide). USP. C6H6N2O. 122.12.[Nicotinamide is INN and JAN.] (1) 3-Pyridinecarbox-amide; (2) Nicotinamide. CAS-98-92-0. Vitamin (enzyme co-factor).

-- from "2007 USP Dictionary of USAN and International Drug Names"

But nutritionists refer to Vit B3 as niacin, as we can see in the documents by nutritional institutions:


What a mess! Different institutions using a different definition!

We should improve this article to try to explain this messy confusion.

-- Arthurfragoso (talk) 04:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The NIH-ODS fact sheet - which represents the authoritative 1998 Institute of Medicine monograph (followed by many countries), explains it clearly as "Niacin (also known as vitamin B3) is one of the water-soluble B vitamins. Niacin is the generic name for nicotinic acid (pyridine-3-carboxylic acid), nicotinamide (niacinamide or pyridine-3-carboxamide), and related derivatives, such as nicotinamide riboside." This seems adequately stated in the lede where I updated and reapplied the NIH ref. Zefr (talk) 04:44, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adequately stated? The lede says "Niacin, also known as nicotinic acid". -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 05:33, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More appropriate for the Definition section than the Lead. David notMD (talk) 17:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except this does not work because in the drug context, FDA approves nicotinic acid preparations for altering blood lipids under the name "niacin". See, for example, NIASPAN label. Does the FDA disagree with the FDA, or... perhaps it's just two different senses of a word (in Am.E)? Artoria2e5 🌉 13:25, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 December 2024

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Niacin → Nicotinic acid – As per MOS:MED, substances should use the International Nonproprietary Name (nicotinic acid). Niacin is the United States Adopted Name for nicotinic acid, and it is also an ambiguous term because nutritional institutions use it to refer to all forms of B3 vitamins (nicotinic acid, nicotinamide, nicotinamide riboside). I think Niacin should be a redirect to Vitamin B3, but as there are potential disagreements, it can be a redirect to Niacin (disambiguation) for now and further discussed. We can at least fix the title for this "nicotinic acid" page now, as it is should be easier as it is based on MOS:MED. -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 19:25, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per my previous comments. I also support retargeting niacin to vitamin B3, as that is likely what most people are seeking when using the term, given the nutritional context. I don't think it would be best to send users directly to the dab page. Hatnotes can be expanded to link between both article and the dab. Mdewman6 (talk) 21:21, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Niacin has been a Good Article since 2020 and gets more than three times the views compared to Vitamin B3. At present, the Niacin article starts "Niacin, also known as nicotinic acid,..." and the Infobox makes clear that Nicotinic acid is used by INN, BAN and JAN. If that needs to be elaborated on in the body of the article then the Definition section can be an appropriate place. David notMD (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I bought supplements with niacin in the "Nutrition Facts" thinking I was consuming nicotinic acid, only to then find information outside wikipedia that niacin can also mean nicotinamide. My supplements all had nicotinamide. You can check the FDA documents showing that supplements have to show Niacin in the Nutrition Facts even when containing nicotinamide.
    Keeping Niacin pointing to this article will make more people make the same mistake. -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 23:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    FDA info on the Nutrition Facts -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 23:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment In 2022 Niacin was moved to Vitamin B3 by a non-admin after a brief discussion on the Talk page of Vitamin B3. I hope we do not have a repeat of that. Niacin was later restored as an article, leaving Vitamin B3 as an article. Recently a referenced section "Niacin term" was added to Vitamin B3. Per my 'Oppose', perhaps the same content could be added to the Definition section in Niacin. David notMD (talk) 23:25, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As I've been saying for a long time, "niacin" in the nutritional sphere refers to "vitamin B3" (i.e. all those related compounds/vitamers), and in the US pharmaceutical sphere refers specifically to "nicotinic acid", commonly given in a high dose. Using an unambiguous term would be an improvement. This is echoed by the "Niacin definition disagreement between institutions" topic above, and by... yep, that "Post-RM discussion" section of mine. PS: I was that non-admin. --Artoria2e5 🌉 13:18, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Niacin" is the common name for the nutritional grouping in almost all national forms of English, and is also the common name for the drug that causes flushing in US English. The name "nicotinic acid" is the common name in non-US countries for the flushing drug. "Vitamin B3" is... well, actually a less ideal name than "niacin" because it's the common name nowhere (same way we don't use the B numbers for folic acid and biotin). The only reason it's being use is that it's totally unambiguous. --Artoria2e5 🌉 11:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "Niacin" is what is used on fortified food and dietary supplement labels in the US, Canada, UK and Australia/New Zealand. Given this is English language Wikipedia, "Niacin" is proper. David notMD (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But that "niacin" in fortified foods refers to nicotinamide, not nicotinic acid! So wikipedia is on a disinformation campaign maintain the page as it currently is! -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 10:17, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Nicotinic acid" can always be "Niacin",
    but
    "Niacin" is not always "Nicotinic acid".
    99% of the time Niacin is referring to the definition of Vitamin B3, that is, usually it is nicotinamide, but it can also be nicotinic acid or nicotinamide riboside.
    The most times when Niacin is really referring to Nicotinic acid is when they say it is the "Flush Niacin". -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 10:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nicotinic acid is what I think of as niacin (the flush seems a part of knowing you are using the real thing). To redirect niacin to B3 seems incorrect and would redefine the common name for nicotinic acid. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:06, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it can redirect to Niacin (disambiguation) -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 11:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also thought Niacin was always referring to the Flush Niacin (nicotinic acid), but reality showed me that most nutritional institutions are using it with the meaning of Vitamin B3, and mostly using Nicotinamide so they don't risk their customers to get a flush reaction. Just look for any regular multivitamin supplement, they will all show Niacin in the "Nutrition Facts", but if you look in the Ingredients, it will say: Nicotinamide (or Niacinamide if in US)
If it was only one institution or country that was using the term "wrong", we could just ignore or message that institution. But they are doing this for decades, as I mentioned in Talk:Niacin#Niacin definition disagreement between institutions. So we have to try to make readers understand and navigate this mess that we are in. -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 11:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
'Niacin' should stay as the title of this page for full accuracy. The disamb page should list this page, in either case or RM consensus, as the first item and not B-3 (many readers do not navigate further than reading the first entry). Randy Kryn (talk) 12:12, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I did make a disambig page when I tried the move in 2022. Didn't sell many people on it. Somehow ontology isn't our strong suit on this website. Artoria2e5 🌉 11:31, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See how the FDA mandates the label to be: 21 CFR 101.36(e)(11)
"Niacin (as Niacinamide)" in some examples, and or just Niacin in the "Supplement Facts", and then written Niacinamide in the Ingredients just bellow.
-- Arthurfragoso (talk) 12:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
""Niacin" is what is used on fortified food and dietary supplement labels in the US, Canada, UK and Australia/New Zealand. Given this is English language Wikipedia, "Niacin" is proper."
This statement is not discussing the issue I'm pointing.
I agree with you that most countries in the world use the word Niacin in the supplements label. But they do not mean the Niacin in this article. This article is about the "Flush Niacin" (Nicotinic acid to be more precise).
The Niacin in the label of all those countries means Vitamin B3.
"The term niacin refers to nicotinamide (nicotinic acid amide-NAD), nicotinic acid (pyridine-3-carboxylic acid), and derivatives that exhibit the biological activity of nicotinamide." - FDA
This is in disagreement with the lede of this article that says:
"Niacin, also known as nicotinic acid"
Do you see how does the statements differ?
I disagree with : "Niacin, also known as Nicotinic acid"
But it would be less wrong if it was: "Nicotinic acid, also known as Niacin"
Seems similar, but there is a difference.
It would bring even less confusion if it was stated: "Nicotinic acid (INN, BAN UK) or Niacin (USAN US)"
But if someone here really want to have an article named Niacin, it would be the Vitamin B3., We can rename that. Because all the things that are being brought here refers to that. Most supplements and food additives uses Nicotinamide (Niacinamide), and not the Flush Niacin (Nicotinic acid).
So, if people read the Niacin in the food label, they go to Wikipedia and reads that it is the Flush Niacin (Nicotinic acid). They are being lied to. Because it is most probably Nicotinamide. So the article in Vitamin B3 fits better this definition.
You can say to me: "Oh, lets just explain this in this Flush Niacin article." But if we do, we are transforming this article to be what the Vitamin B3 article currently is. It will be much more work and it will not make any sense. At least I don't see the sense in this.
I know that originally the term Niacin was meant to be just for the Flush Niacin, but the reality is that the term was diluted during decades, and today all the big institution use it as a broad term in their documents, as I pointed in many references before. The industries just use nicotinamide and label it as Niacin because it is what the regulations tell them to do.
I hope this made things a bit more clear. -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 15:38, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uhhh. Actually the "niacin" word originally was meant for the vitamin group -- it's short for "nicotinic acid vitamin" and was coined because doctors didn't want people to think that cigarettes contain a vitamin. The flush name is a later confusion by Americans. --Artoria2e5 🌉 11:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I should also mention that the content referring to the food sources and daily recommendations on this page should only belong to the vitamin page. Yes, I moved that content in 2022 too. Artoria2e5 🌉 11:32, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. But I would wait for the close of this move request. -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 15:40, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A US supplement label showing the amount of niacin (Vitamin B3), and specifying to be niacinamide in the ingredient section.
The arguments saying that English speaking countries use the word Niacin is a distortion of the facts. They do in fact use the word niacin, but it is WP:COMMONNAME for Vitamin B3 and not Nicotinic acid. The only country I found proof to use Niacin to refer to Nicotinic acid is the US, as it is in the USP dictionary of USAN. I even showed the correct term approved for use in UK is Nicotinic Acid. (Martindale 2011, the BAN at the top refers to British Approved Name)
Oh, and acetaminophen is the official word in much more countries (United States, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Colombia and Venezuela, (according to the article)), but their page title is paracetamol that is the INN, and so agreeing with MOS:MED. — Arthurfragoso (talk) 04:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Niacin has been the name of the article since it was created in 2002. Thus, a common name of long standing. David notMD (talk) 20:37, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. We should have an article on Niacin, it's a good topic, and another on Vitamin B3 which is another good topic. If we need an article on Nicotinic acid or other related topics, we should create them. Andrewa (talk) 07:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Andrewa There is the substance C₆H₅NO₂ represented by CAS 59-67-6. Are you saying we should have two article for this substance, each article with a different name? Niacin and Nicotinic Acid?
    What should the name of the article that represent C₆H₅NO₂ be? Arthurfragoso (talk) 14:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Andrewa this article is about C₆H₅NO₂ represented by CAS 59-67-6. If you see this article history, you will see this was always about 59-67-6. [18] [19] Arthurfragoso (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Andrewa this article is on Nicotinic acid, it just have the incorrect name. I can copy this article and create another with the Nicotinic acid title, but if I do this, I will be breaking rules, as this would not preserve the article history. Why can't it be the other way around? Make this article be "Nicotinic acid" and name a different article as "Niacin"? If something is wrong should we keep that thing wrong because it has always been a good wrong article? The article is good, but the title is deceiving. This article can be part of the blame for why I bought the wrong supplements. And I learned my lessons that en Wikipedia is less reliable than I initially thought. -- Arthurfragoso (talk) 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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